17 comments

  • jefftk 4 hours ago
    The FASTA format looks like:

        > title
        bases with optional newlines
        > title
        bases with optional newlines
        ...
    
    The author is talking about removing the non-semantic optional newlines (hard wrapping), not all the newlines in the file.

    It makes a lot of sense that this would work: bacteria have many subsequences in common, but if you insert non-semantic newlines at effectively random offsets then compression tools will not be able to use the repetition effectively.

    • bede 3 hours ago
      Thank you for clarifying this – yes the non-semantic nature of these particular line breaks is a key detail I omitted.
    • AndrewOMartin 3 hours ago
      The compression ratio will likely skyrocket if you sorted the list of bases.
      • shellfishgene 3 hours ago
        You're joking, but a few bioinformatics tools use the Burrows-Wheeler transform to save memory, which is a bit like sorting the bases.
        • jefftk 2 hours ago
          You can also improve compression by reordering the sequences within the FASTA file, as long as you're using it as a dictionary and not a list of title-sequence pairs.
    • amelius 2 hours ago
      [flagged]
  • dekhn 13 minutes ago
    I've explored alternatives to FASTA and FASTQ but in most cases I found that simply not storing sequence data is the best option of all, but if I have to do it, columnar formats with compression are usually the best alternative when considering all of (my) the constraints.
  • mfld 4 hours ago

        Using larger-than-default window sizes has the drawback of requiring that the same --long=xx argument be passed during decompression reducing compatibility somewhat.
    
    Interesting. Any idea why this can't be stored in the metadata of the compressed file?
    • lifthrasiir 4 hours ago
      It is stored in the metadata [1], but anything larger than 8 MiB is not guaranteed to be supported. So there has to be an out-of-band agreement between compressor and decompressor.

      [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8878#name-window-de...

      • mfld 55 minutes ago
        Thanks! So the --long essentially signals the decoder "I am willing to accept the potentially large memory requirements implied by the given window size"
      • pbronez 4 hours ago
        Seems useful for games marketplaces like Steam and Xbox. You control the CDN and client, so you can use tricky but effective compression settings all day long.
    • nolist_policy 4 hours ago
      It uses more memory (up to +2gb) during decompression as well -> potential DoS.
      • Aachen 4 hours ago
        Sending a .zip filled with all zeroes, so it compresses extremely well, is a well-known DoS historically (zip bomb, making the server run out of space in trying to read the archive)

        You always need resource limits when dealing with untrusted data. RAM is one of the obvious ones. They could introduce a memory limit parameter; require passing --long with a value equal to or greater than what the stream requires to successfully decompress; require seeking support for the input stream so they can look back that way (TMTO); fall back to using temp files; or interactively prompt the user if there's a terminal attached. Lots of options, each with pros and cons of course, that would all allow a scenario where the required information for the decoder is stored in the compressed data file

        • dzaima 2 hours ago
          The decompressed output needn't be in-memory (or even on-disk; it could be directly streamed to analysis) all at the same time, at which point resource limits aren't a problem at all. And I believe --long already is a "grater than or equal to" value, and should also be effectively a memory limit (or pretty close to one at least).

          Seeking back in the input might theoretically work, but I feel like that could easily get very bad (aka exponential runtime); never mind needing actual seeking.

  • ashvardanian 4 hours ago
    Nice observation!

    Took me a while to realize that Grace Blackwell refers to a person and not an Nvidia chip :)

    I’ve worked with large genomic datasets on my own dime, and the default formats show their limits quickly. With FASTA, the first step for me is usually conversion: unzip headers from sequences, store them in Arrow-like tapes for CPU/GPU processing, and persist as Parquet when needed. It’s straightforward, but surprisingly underused in bioinformatics — most pipelines stick to plain text even when modern data tooling would make things much easier :(

    • bede 2 hours ago
      Yes, when doing anything intensive with lots of sequences it generally makes sense to liberate them from FASTA as early as possible and index them somehow. But as an interchange format FASTA seems quite sticky. I find the pervasiveness of fastq.gz particularly unfortunate with Gzip being as slow as it is.

      > Took me a while to realize that Grace Blackwell refers to a person and not an Nvidia chip :)

      I even confused myself about this while writing :-)

    • jltsiren 3 hours ago
      Basic text formats persist, because everyone supports them. Many tools have better file formats for internal purposes, but they are rarely flexible enough and robust enough for wider use. There are occasional proposals for better general purpose formats, but the people proposing them rarely agree which of the competing proposals should be adopted. And even if they manage to agree, they probably don't have the time and the money to make it actually happen.
      • vintermann 1 hour ago
        Also for historical reasons I think, since Perl used to be the big bioinformatics language, and it is surprisingly hard to compete with in string handling.
        • lazide 1 hour ago
          Perl+strings really is one of those ‘unreasonably effective’ combinations.

          It feels like Benzene in some ways. Use it correctly and gdamn. Just don’t huff it - i mean - use it for your enterprise backend - and it’s worth it.

  • keketi 1 hour ago
    When you know you're going to be compressing files of particular structure, it's often very beneficial to tweak compression algorithm parameters. In one case when dealing with CSV data, I was able to find a LZMA2 compression level, dictionary size and compression mode that yielded a massive speedup, uses 1/100th the memory and surprisingly even yields better compression ratios, probably from the smaller dictionary size. That's in comparison to the library's default settings.
  • Aachen 4 hours ago
    I've also noticed this. Zstandard doesn't see very common patterns

    For me it was an increasing number (think of unix timestamps in a data logger that stores one entry per second, so you are just counting up until there's a gap in your data), in the article it's a fixed value every 60 bytes

    Of course, our brains are exceedingly good at finding patterns (to the point where we often find phantom ones). I was just expecting some basic checks like "does it make sense to store the difference instead of the absolute value for some of these bytes here". Seeing as the difference is 0 between every 60th byte in the submitted article, that should fix both our issues

    Bzip2 performed much better for me but it's also incredibly slow. If it were only the compressor, that might be fine for many applications, but also decompressing is an exercise in patience so I've moved to Zstandard at the standard thing to use

  • leobuskin 5 hours ago
    What about a specialized dict for FASTA? Shouldn't it increase ZSTD compression significantly?
    • bede 5 hours ago
      Yes I'd expect a dict-based approach to do better here. That's probably how it should be done. But --long is compelling for me because using it requires almost no effort, it's still very fast, and yet it can dramatically improve compression ratio.
      • tecleandor 2 hours ago
        From what I've read (although I haven't tested and I can't find my source from when I read it), dictionaries aren't very useful when dataset is big, and just by using '--long' you can cover that improvement.

        Have any of you tested it?

        • leobuskin 1 hour ago
          I don’t think the size of content matters, it’s all about patterns (and their repetitiveness) within, and FASTA is a great target, if I understand the format correctly
          • privatelypublic 29 minutes ago
            I tried building a zstd dictionary for something(compressing many instances of the same Mono(.net) binary serialized class, mostly identical), and in this case it provided no real advantage. Honestly, I didn't dig into it too much, but will give --long a try shortly.

            PS: what the author implicitly suggests cannot be replaced with zstd tweaks. It'll be interesting to look at the file in imhex- especially if I can find an existing Pattern File.

  • FL33TW00D 4 hours ago
    Looking forward to the relegation of FASTQ and FASTA to the depths of hell where they belong. Incredibly inefficient and poorly designed formats.
    • jefftk 2 hours ago
      How so? As long as you remove the hard wrapping and use compression aren't they in the same range as other options?

      (I currently store a lot of data as FASTQ, and smaller file sizes could save us a bunch of money. But FASTQ + zstd is very good.)

      • fwip 45 minutes ago
        There's a few options out there that have noticeably better compression, with the downside of being less widely-compatible with tools. zstd also has the benefit of being very fast (depending on your settings, of course).

        CRAM compresses unmapped fastq pretty well, and can do even better with reference-based compression. If your institution is okay with it, you can see additional savings by quantizing quality scores (modern Illumina sequencers already do this for you). If you're aligning your data anyways, probably retaining just the compressed CRAM file with unmapped reads included is your best bet.

        There are also other fasta/fastq specific tools like fqzcomp or MZPAQ. Last I checked, both of these could about halve the size of our fastq.gz files.

  • totalperspectiv 1 hour ago
    Removing the wrapping newline from the FASTA/FASTQ convention also dramatically improves parsing perf when you don't have to do as much lookahead to find record ends.
    • Gethsemane 1 hour ago
      Unfortunately, when you write a program that doesn't wrap output FASTAs, you have a bunch of people telling you off because SOME programs (cough bioperl cough) have hard limits on line length :)
    • bede 58 minutes ago
      Thanks for reminding me to benchmark this!
      • totalperspectiv 39 minutes ago
        I've only tested this when writing my own parser where I could skip the record end checks, so idk if this improves perf on a existing parser. Excited to see what you find!
  • IshKebab 4 hours ago
    Damn surely you stop using ASCII formats before your dataset gets to 2 TB??
    • rurban 1 hour ago
      Ha. it gets worse. Search engines or blacklist processors often use gigantic url lists, which are stored as plain ASCII, which is then fed into a perfect hash generator, which accesses those url's unordered. I.e. they need to create a second ordering index to access the urllist. The perfect hashing guys are mathematicians and so they don't care because their definition of a mphf (minimal perfect hash function) is just a random ordering of unique indices, but they don't care to store the ordering also. So we have ASCII and no index.
    • bede 3 hours ago
      BAM format is widely used but assemblies still tend to be generated and exchanged in FASTA text. BAM is quite a big spec and I think it's fair to say that none of the simpler binary equivalents to FASTA and FASTQ have caught on yet (XKCD competing standards etc.)

      e.g. https://github.com/ArcInstitute/binseq

    • amelius 2 hours ago
      People rely on compression for that ;)
    • hhh 3 hours ago
      no, I power thru indefinitely with no recourse
  • semiinfinitely 4 hours ago
    FASTA is a candidate for the stupidest file format ever invented and a testament to the massive gap in perceived vs actual programming ability of the average bioinformatician.
    • boothby 1 hour ago
      Spend a few years handling data in arcane, one-off, and proprietary file formats conceived by "brilliant" programmers with strong CS backgrounds and you might reconsider the conclusion you've come to here.
    • totalperspectiv 1 hour ago
      > a testament to the massive gap in perceived vs actual programming ability of the average bioinformatician.

      This is not really a fair statement. Literally all of software bears the weight of some early poor choice that then keeps moving forward via weight of momentum. FASTA and FASTQ formats are exceptionally dumb though.

    • semiinfinitely 4 hours ago
      other file formats that rival fasta in stupidity include fastq pdb bed sam cram vcf. further reading [1]

      > "intentionally or not, bioinformatics found a way to survive: obfuscation. By making the tools unusable, by inventing file format after file format, by seeking out the most brittle techniques"

      1. https://madhadron.com/science/farewell_to_bioinformatics.htm...

      • jakobnissen 3 hours ago
        SAM is not a bad file format. What's bad about SAM?
        • optionalsquid 1 hour ago
          I don't dislike the format, and it is much, much better than what it replaced, but SAM, and its binary sister-format BAM, does have some flaws:

          - The original index format could not handle large chromosomes, so now there are two index formats: .bai and .csi

          - For BAM, the CIGAR (alignment description) operation count is limited to 16 bits, which means that very long alignments cannot be represented. One workaround I've seen (but thankfully not used) is saving the CIGAR as a string in a tag

          - SAM cannot unambiguously represent sequences with only a single base (e.g. after trimming), since a '*' in the quality column can be interpreted either as a single Phred score (9) or as a special value meaning "no qualities". BAM can represent such sequences unambiguously, but most tools output SAM

    • Fraterkes 4 hours ago
      I’ll do you the immense favor of taking the bait. What’s so bad about it?
    • fwip 32 minutes ago
      It might be the stupidest, but stupid in the sense of "the simplest thing that could possibly work."

      When FASTA was invented, Sanger sequencing reads would be around a thousand bases in length. Even back then, disk space wasn't so precious that you couldn't spend several kilobytes on the results of your experiment. Plus, being able to view your results with `more` is a useful feature when you're working with data of that size.

      And, despite its simplicity, it has worked for forty years.

  • nickdothutton 2 hours ago
    How can we represent data or algos such that such optimisations before more obvious?
  • rini17 2 days ago
    This might in general be a good preprocessing step to check for punctuation repeating in fixed intervals and remove it, and restore after decompression.
    • vintermann 5 hours ago
      That turns in into specialized compression, which DNA already has plenty of. Many forms of specialized compression even allow string-related queries directly on the compressed data.
    • bede 2 days ago
      Yes, it sounds like 7-Zip/LZMA can do this using custom filters, among other more exotic (and slow) statistical compression approaches.
  • diimdeep 1 hour ago
    What's current way to accessibly process my 23andme raw data ? It's been synthesized decade ago and SNPedia and Promethease seems abandoned, so what's alternative if there is, and if there is none how we arrived to this?
  • lutusp 1 hour ago
    > I speculated that this poor performance might be caused by the newline bytes (0x0A) punctuating every 60 characters of sequence, breaking the hashes used for long range pattern matching.

    If the linefeeds were treated as semantic characters and not allowed to break the hash size, you would get similar results without pre-filtering and post-filtering. It occurs to me that this strategy is so obvious that there must be some reason it won't work.

  • im3w1l 2 hours ago
    As someone with an idle interest in data compression, ss it possible to download the original dataset somewhere to play around with? Or rather a like 20gb subset of it.
  • Kim_Bruning 5 hours ago
    Now I'm wondering why this works. DNA clearly has some interesting redundancy strategies. (it might also depend on genome?)
    • dwattttt 5 hours ago
      The FASTA format stores nucleotides in text form... compression is used to make this tractable at genome sizes, but it's by no means perfect.

      Depending on what you need to represent, you can get a 4x reduction in data size without compression at all, by just representing a GATC with 2 bits, rather than 8.

      Compression on top of that "should" result in the same compressed size as the original text (after all, the "information" being compressed is the same), except that compression isn't perfect.

      Newlines are an example of something that's "information" in the text format that isn't relevant, yet the compression scheme didn't know that.

      • hyghjiyhu 5 hours ago
        I think one important factor you missed to account for is frameshifting. Compression algorithms work on bytes - 8 bits. Imagine that you have the exact same sequence but they occur at different offsets mod 4. Then your encoding will give completely different results, and the compression algorithm will be unable to make use of the repetition.
        • dwattttt 2 hours ago
          I was actually under the impression compression algorithms tend to work over a bitstream, but I can't entirely confirm that.
          • Sesse__ 23 minutes ago
            Some are bit-by-bit (e.g. the PPM family of compressors[1]), but the normal input granularity for most compressors is a byte. (There are even specialized ones that work on e.g. 32 bits at a time.)

            [1] Many of the context models in a typical PPM compressor will be byte-by-byte, so even that isn't fully clear-cut.

          • vintermann 1 hour ago
            They output a bitstream, yeah but I don't know of anything general purpose which effectively consumes anything smaller than bytes (unless you count various specialized handlers in general-purpose compression algorithms, e.g. to deal with long lists of floats)
    • vintermann 5 hours ago
      This is a dataset of bacterial DNA. Any two related bacteria will have long strings of the same letters. But it won't be neatly aligned, so the line breaks will mess up pattern matching.
      • bede 4 hours ago
        Exactly. The line breaks break the runs of otherwise identical bits in identical sequences. Unless two identical subsequences are exactly in phase with respect to their line breaks, the hashes used for long range matching are different for otherwise identical subsequences.
      • amelius 2 hours ago
        And the compressor does not think: "how can I make these two sequences align better without wasting a lot of space?"