Small Models Have Arrived

(calv.info)

219 points | by tosh 3 hours ago

27 comments

  • NitpickLawyer 2 hours ago
    > But I also think the demand for "fast/cheap/good-enough" models is just about to take off.

    There's a sort of "revelation" I had in ~early '24 when I used a 7B local model with a library called Guidance (initially out of MS, then the team moved) to create a flow where the model would receive pseudocode for tests, first write the tests, and once I approved then started writing code until the tests passed. This was before "thinking" models, and yet using that library I was able to "guide" the model in the required "prompt / instruct" context such that it was working towards completion, and I saw the first things like we see now in the thinking traces "oh, test x doesn't pass because blah, I need to..." and so on.

    Anyway, the revelation was "even if the models never improve, I'll have years of fun finding out all the ways I can use these things". And, obviously, the models improved a lot since then. But I think that revelation can still be applied, as a sort of "truism". We have, right now, access to things that 10-20 years ago would be considered magic. We are still finding ways of cobbling together systems with glue, duct tape and prayers and find new things they can do.

    I think the "good-enough" stage has come not just for API models (cheap, fast, etc) but for local as well. Even if slower, even if clunkier, but they are good enough for a set of ever increasing tasks, and what's more it's incredibly fun to work with them.

    • swatcoder 51 minutes ago
      Yes.

      The infancy phase of this technology is represented by the pursuit of making wildly grand, wildly expensive, all-purpose models that somehow discern a user's full accurate intent from a lazy, underdeveloped, vague idea that they ambiguously and poorly express in a couple dozen words.

      The adolescence will arrive as those outsized and ill-considered ambitions collapse and we instead see a cambrian explosion of restrained but efficient model+harness-tuples that have been distilled, finetuned, and rigged to deliver on narrowly scoped but idiosyncratically-shaped tasks with incredible efficiency and erogonomics.

      • jimmaswell 32 minutes ago
        This idea has failed to pan out time and time again - people have an instinct that hand-crafted finely-tuned specialized AI systems must be optimal, but throwing more scale and compute to something more generally smart always wins out. It's especially palpable just looking at the last few years of LLM's: a frontier model with all the world knowledge you can stuff in it and every tool at its disposal has always performed the best at all tasks. Suggesting otherwise has become an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.

        http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html

        Recent comment touching on this in relation to LLM's in more depth: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49322695#49323341

        • applfanboysbgon 16 minutes ago
          This idea has not failed to pan out at all. I work for a startup that is exactly what GP described, and am set for life because of how wildly successful it is. Notably, we are successful, in a genuine sense of the word: we bootstrapped from running tiny models to larger and larger models on our own slowly improving fleet of GPUs, and now have millions in revenue without a single dime of outside investment. Conversely, you cannot call taking on ~1 trillion in debt and purchase commitments to scale "success". OpenAI and Anthropic are underwater financially. To be precise, they're in the Mariana Trench.
          • wild_egg 14 minutes ago
            Wait, you actually found a viable counter to The Bitter Lesson? Please say more
            • applfanboysbgon 0 minutes ago
              This is a misunderstanding of either the bitter lesson or what myself and the previous post I was agreeing with are claiming, on multiple accounts. Firstly, the bitter lesson is merely about human expertise-tuned algorithms vs. throwing raw compute at a domain. But, notably, it is still domain-specific. No matter how much compute you throw at an LLM model, it is never going to beat a Chess engine at Chess. This is true for within several orders of magnitude of compute, in fact. If you give a Chess engine 1,000,000 compute units and an LLM 1,000,000 compute units, the Chess engine obviously wins; ergo, there is considerable value in throwing compute units into training models for specific tasks.

              Secondly, the bitter lesson is predicated on compute being cheap. There was a period where a hand-tuned algorithm informed by human expertise would outperform a raw alpha-beta search at Chess. Then compute got cheaper, and DeepBlue ascended to the top. Compute is now expensive again relative to the tasks being performed. We are at least presently absolutely still in a period where human expertise in training LLMs will outperform a naive approach with more raw compute.

      • HoldOnAMinute 13 minutes ago
        Someone will eventually figure out how to package it all into a single, cheap chip
    • jermaustin1 2 hours ago
      To me, most local models work just fine for anything you can be patient for. If I want something quicker, I will go to a SOTA model via API, but with multiple 3090s, I have never really needed a hosted model for a lot of my experiments.

      For code, they are great, but for creativity for NPC controllers, they leave something to be desired, but work well enough for testing, so I don't burn tokens until I'm actually playing my games.

      But nothing one-shots a prototype better than Fable 5. I can have a prototype built in 30 minutes, hooked up to my local LLMs and Claude Code is very good at testing the interactions and even tuning the prompts of the NPCs for better experiences.

      • __float 2 hours ago
        "with multiple 3090s" is quite a bit of burying the lede for "most local models work just fine", don't you think?
        • jermaustin1 1 hour ago
          Having multiple 6 year old cards doesn't seem like it's that big of burden for local LLMs.

          I get that a lot of people don't have them. And a single one can be VERY performant. And the smaller models like a 7B can run on much smaller hardware like a mid-range [3|4|5]060.

          My entire AI Dev Box cost $4500 in parts. 128GB RAM, i7-10700, 1TB and 2TB SSD, and 2x 3090s. Today's prices and inflation have definitely made that price tag seem a lot better than it was, but it was an investment in all things GPU that were happening in 2020 (crypto, blender, image gen), then LLMs exploded.

          • thayne 1 hour ago
            A single, used 3090 costs more than I have ever spent on a computer.
            • 9cb14c1ec0 1 hour ago
              Yes, the tunnel vision around local models on this site is crazy. The percentage of people in the world who can afford the hardware is extremely low.
              • layer8 51 minutes ago
                It seems roughly similar to the pricing level of personal computers in the early eighties (i.e. IBM PC and Apple Macintosh). I’d expect prices to come down significantly over the next few years. Not so much in the next year or two, but after that.
              • BoxOfRain 12 minutes ago
                It's a decreasing pool as well I'd say, the dev machine I built last summer would make less financial sense to me now for example.
              • jermaustin1 39 minutes ago
                I don't think there is tunnel vision. I'm just saying that I have a couple 3090s I invested in a handful of years ago, and they are still going strong today as multiple GPU-needing technologies emerged.

                I'm not saying everyone has to run local LLMs, because the APIs are in a race to the bottom, and my $10 of OpenRouter credits I bought months ago is down to $8.94 because most models give you MILLIONS of tokens for a US Quarter.

              • zahlman 30 minutes ago
                I mean, I'm not rushing out to buy that kind of hardware myself, but it is a matter of perspective. People commonly spend an order of magnitude more on a car, and that's just the sticker price.
            • wafflemaker 1 hour ago
              My single 3080 runs so hot I don't need to warm my room in winter, and have to play games in my underwear in summer.
          • zamadatix 58 minutes ago
            I got a great deal on ~72 TB of NVMe right before storage prices shot up, doesn't make it any less ridiculous that I have it or any more relevant to people talking about building a NAS now. 99% of people, even in tech, do not have the stupid amounts of hardware people like us hobby on.
            • oceanplexian 15 minutes ago
              Most people in the US have a car, and the average new car is $40,000. Hell where I live a middle class consumer will spend double that on a Boat or an RV and think nothing of it. These aren’t elite tech workers.

              It’s not unfathomable that if a personal, generally intelligent local AI provides enough utility and doesn’t require you to tweak CLI flags millions of Americans would want one.

            • sroussey 43 minutes ago
              where? i would love that.
          • xnx 40 minutes ago
            > 2x 3090s

            You could sell those and have enough money to pay for hosted inference for years.

            • jermaustin1 36 minutes ago
              They cost more to run than hosted anyway. But that isn't the point of having them. They are a playground, a backup when the internet is down, or claude is down. They can render Blender scenes pretty well. They play any game I want.

              You can do each of those at various hosts and own nothing. Or own a couple "over priced" cards and do it all at home on battery power for a few hours while the power is out.

            • Gecko4072 28 minutes ago
              But after all those years you’d still have 2 3090s, which are now about 6 years old and still holding value.
      • sroussey 44 minutes ago
        I have trouble getting simple extraction to work sometimes. I have a block of text describing people and their roles at a company and their ages, and i asked for structured results of an array of these things with the text span that it appears in and all i can say is: nope.
    • ksec 1 hour ago
      While they are improving rapidly, or as you say even if they don't. The next stage is for hardware companies ( cough Apple cough ) to ship these Local Model ready hardware in their products.

      It will be interesting to track the improvements of these 7B model over time.

      There will be a turning point in the next few years where it attract enough consumer attention to create yet another Smartphone and PC super cycle.

    • eqmvii 40 minutes ago
      I see it in a slightly opposite way: even the good models are relatively cheap, and so I worry what we might miss by spending too much time playing with the Sonnets of the world when the Opuses are still objectively a bargain for the power they bring.
      • zahlman 32 minutes ago
        > when the Opuses are still objectively a bargain for the power they bring.

        The cost isn't just what you're billed. There are security, privacy etc. concerns.

        • Foobar8568 17 minutes ago
          I know companies that are using github, even using public repo, and request their teams to not use SOTA models, but are ok with local models. Just stupid policy.
    • riazrizvi 1 hour ago
      I think there's something subtle about language and ambiguity that means they aren't designed to become superintelligent autonomous machines. They're value is as information repositories that actual intelligent autonomous machines (us) mine and string together.
      • dgellow 1 hour ago
        Yes LLMs are a beautiful way to compact knowledge. It would be such a cool technology to develop and worked with if it wasn’t linked to such a toxic industry
    • Der_Einzige 7 minutes ago
      BTW structured/constrained generation has so many places to trivially enable jailbreaking/alignment/safety problems that closed source models heavily limit the full expresivity of grammars and capabilities, particular of on-the-fly dynamic grammar construction/reconstruction.
    • viscousviolin 49 minutes ago
      If someone has an old GPU laying around, say a GTX 1080 with 8 GB of memory, would that be enough to get a (small?) local model running?
    • LoveMistral 2 hours ago
      Same. Mistral 7b has been more than I ever needed for text for years now.

      Unless you must 1-shot with no harness it’s the same amount of power, maybe more because the big “good” models make too many assumptions and tend to become rigid.

      Mistral 7b can do anything, and it’s basically instant even on an M3

      • frigidwalnut 2 hours ago
        Sounds interesting. Can you give more details on your workflow and what tasks you use it for?
        • LoveMistral 1 hour ago
          Code, creative writing, email summaries, automated email replies, and I prefill my invoice notes and daily updates for work.

          Actually built a full invoicing product for that, using it too.

          I use Mistral 7b and LlamaIndexTS on Node, I run it on a MacBook M3 and on a Linux server with only 8GB VRAM (old gaming PC).

          Basically flawless, runs very fast and I don’t even know what paying for “tokens” is :)

          • jgthvxevbc 47 minutes ago
            [flagged]
            • Barbing 9 minutes ago
              This is how your comment displays on my screen, perhaps a typo:

              >”@dang I really need an IP &/or account ban”

      • Almondsetat 2 hours ago
        What kind of work are you doing? For example, if I have some code in the hot path and I want to do all the usual tricks to help the compiler vectorize it, such a small model is not able to do much.
        • LoveMistral 1 hour ago
          RAG is your friend (or any vector db). No model can vectorize an entire codebase in context.

          Even a big mainstream product (like Gemini) cannot handle more than ~1k lines without missing details and making mistakes. And about every 1k lines, it seems to forget the previous 1k, doesn’t it? So you can never hold more than a file or 2 (or 3) in context at a time without losing details.

          What you find is that the big models like Gemini are doing vector storage and retrieval too, and breaking prompts down into chunks for various models to handle to assemble a thorough response.

          If you want that kind of control in your outputs, and be able to hold a lot in your inputs, I don’t see any other way regardless of which model you use.

      • casper14 1 hour ago
        What are some limitations you have found with using a smaller model like that?
    • dominotw 31 minutes ago
      ppl keep talking about the supposed unexplored and untapped "model overhang" but very few things in the world are where you can write elaborate test criteria to before using ai.

      A sales person sending a prospect email doesnt have a way to write a test harness for it. Yet these tasks dominate what humans do compared to writing a crud app . otherwise anthropic wouldnt have trillions dollar valuation

    • cyanydeez 1 hour ago
      I've amassed access to 4 different GPU rigs with 128GB to 72GB; I didn't this before I event touched an agentic engineering harness. It was sometime in February/March when I set them to first tackle small problems, and now with deer-flow, they're scaffolding full project/scope implementation and I'm finishing off the fine details around the problematic edges.
  • NickNaraghi 2 hours ago
    > Across his various startups, Peter has seen two kinds of work:

    > 1. the "IQ 180" work. some mad scientist genius type comes up with some crazy solution you've never thought of.

    > 2. the "token spewer" work. being ultra responsive, pushing the ball forward across dozens of different fronts.

    Interesting comp to pg's Maker's Schedule, Manager's Schedule https://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html

    I'm curious about not only which of these roles models will fill, but also how they will empower us to be in the mode we prefer.

  • michael0church 2 hours ago
    It makes sense that we’ll see “room at the bottom” strategies. Currently, large parameter counts seem to be slush funds of world knowledge, language skills (because language’s nuances and open vocabulary make it high-dimensional), and reasoning primitives, the general belief being that the latter takes up the least space in the model.

    There are many applications where world knowledge is unnecessary or even a negative, and in which only a small amount of language skill is necessary, and there we can expect small models more intelligently used to beat large ones naively used.

    • LPisGood 2 hours ago
      Small amounts of world knowledge seems like it would inherently be tied to more hallucinations.
      • TJTorola 2 hours ago
        Perhaps we'll get to a point where believing any un-sourced information from an LLM will feel crazy. I don't want my model to know more than it needs to perform logic and use tools. Once it is capable of using tools I would much rather it looked up information or sourced it from existing context rather than just divine it from it's weights.
      • DennisP 1 hour ago
        Only if we require the knowledge to be built into the weights. Give it access to a search engine and a big library of ebooks, and it might do better.
      • Zambyte 1 hour ago
        Probably. You can solve it with either some grounding context, or spending hundreds or thousands a month extra on a model that has more knowledge baked in. With modern harnesses, the choices is obvious.
    • giraffe_lady 2 hours ago
      Everyone wants this to be it but over and over we discover that the bigger a model is the better it is at all tasks, even ones far outside the domain it was optimized for. IE claude fable is better at writing both code and prose than smaller code- and prose-specific models.

      The way vision and language models converge into the same geometric space should be extremely alarming for the "you don't need global knowledge for local tasks" type dreams.

      And to be clear I'm not saying that smaller models don't or can't work well, or that we shouldn't be heading in this direction. And it's not quite the case that broad knowledge is strictly necessary. But it never seems to be negative! And so far it is the best way we've found to do... everything. Small models are good to the extent they are like big models, not to the extent that they are small.

      • wredcoll 1 hour ago
        I think the context here is that small models run locally, not rented from a cloud.
        • giraffe_lady 37 minutes ago
          Yes small models are and will be useful for lots of stuff for several reasons.

          But the idea they’d be better than a bigger model is cope, you’re pretty much always better off running the biggest one you can bring to bear within your constraints.

    • cyanydeez 56 minutes ago
      [flagged]
  • swiftcoder 2 hours ago
    I find it quite funny all these folks who are addicted to chasing frontier models, only just noticing that small models became "good enough" for most tasks. Those of us without fable-sized expense accounts noticed this quite a while back
    • SomeonesAccount 2 hours ago
      Exactly! Composer 2/2.5 were amazing, cheap, and fast. Everyone else was Gaga about GPT 5.5 and such, while we were over here doing the work with less cost and more speed
    • jbjbjbjb 2 hours ago
      I’ve been playing around with Luna, Terra and Sol and for the type of work I’ve been doing lately I actually think Sol is just a likely to trip up as Luna. Examples were Sol over assuming, persisting in the wrong direction, over engineering a little script to do some exploration of api. They can all be fixed but it’s a waste of tokens, I rather have Luna do it because course correction on small pieces of work is cheaper.
      • scoring1774 2 hours ago
        I've found the distinction to be in how much I care about how the final product looks. If I want high-quality code I typically find a smaller model with a well-designed spec to do better, if I want it to just run and produce something close to my vague description typically Sol does better. For most actual business use-cases I think the first is likely better but the experimentation speed up with the frontier is very nice.
    • jlkuester7 2 hours ago
      Exactly. Even 32b parameter models you can run locally on consumer hardware are "good enough" at this point for some workflows!
    • dominotw 30 minutes ago
      no they are not good enough for "most" tasks
    • kccqzy 1 hour ago
      > for most tasks

      The word “most” is doing a lot of work here. On a percentage basis perhaps most tasks a typical SWE needs to do are just glorified autocomplete. But that’s boring and that’s why people don’t usually talk about it. People are addicted to chasing frontier models because they have crazy complicated algorithms they cannot implement themselves and want to have the models achieve this technical breakthrough.

      • swiftcoder 22 minutes ago
        > crazy complicated algorithms they cannot implement themselves

        I'm not sure I know very many engineers who would fall in this bucket. Or do you mean the business types who suddenly think AI can replace all the engineers?

  • yipinwong 1 hour ago
    "Small models" nowadays work like someone who has IQ 100+ while SOTA ones are like 150, "relatively".

    Given sheer number of turns I can make with small models, I can do a lotta stufff

    - cheaper, and faster

    Harness makes differences: There have been many HN posts about how one made tiny models work better at certain tasks using harnesses.

    These "small" models with right context, and guidance, they work wonders.

    ---

    I've been saying Luna has been my go-to AI in previous comments and why Luna is still more compelling than GLM-5.3-flash.

    - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49450353#49452248

  • glimshe 3 hours ago
    > There's obviously a lot we can optimize here, but if you're charging what the WSJ or The Economist charges, you'd better be delivering similar value.

    Gosh, watching paint dry has been a better value than reading The Economist in the last 5 years or so.

    That aside, I had good results with Luna. I'd be interested in hearing about a comparison that takes into consideration response time (not TPS), cost and performance of the popular models at different settings. That chart has some of that. For instance, is Luna Max a better value than Terra Medium?

    • yousif_123123 2 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • glimshe 36 minutes ago
        Yes, I've read every article on every issue for 5 years. Or maybe I haven't and simply randomly sampled enough articles to know it's not worth it.
      • my-next-account 53 minutes ago
        Are ya kidding me
  • throwaway63467 2 hours ago
    I’m kind of cautiously excited for the next five to ten years, with these AI chips becoming incredibly fast and RAM capacities ramping up its in the cards that we’ll have chips like today’s ATMEL microprocessors that fit on a single board computer and can run small models locally, then all our gizmos can have local AI and I can have a truly intelligent home. Of course there will be a huge push to put all of it in the cloud but maybe we have a chance to take this technology home for good as it’s hard to imagine people will submit to this kind of surveillance required for AI home automation 24/7 (then again I might be wrong). Exciting times.
  • highfrequency 1 hour ago
    > the "token spewer" work. being ultra responsive, pushing the ball forward across dozens of different fronts... ~95% of the work he does falls into bucket 2. It's hopping on calls. Nudging people. Blocking and tackling.

    This is a good insight broadly!

  • pranav_tech26 1 hour ago
    Running small models locally beats wrestling with API latencies and rate limits. The compute trade-off is 100% worth the privacy and DX gains.
  • low_tech_punk 1 hour ago
    The tokens per second speed measurement is highly inflated nowadays because most of the tokens went into thinking. I wonder if there is a more realistic measurement for "effective speed", which accounts for thinking efficiency.
    • ak_t 1 hour ago
      Many benchmarks now measure the total cost or energy usage per completed task.
  • embedding-shape 50 minutes ago
    I love how "Small Models" apparently is "Model of unknown size but probably smaller than another model that we also don't know the size of".
  • caust1c 2 hours ago
    IMO big models are not a product in and of themselves. Inference is just a new type of compute. I'm confident that in two or three years, every product will have inference capabilities integrated into the experience, and models will become less and less distinctive from one another.

    What most products need from a model is a pretty short list: the ability to make tool calls well, accurate recall, and the ability to follow directions without wavering (whether or not those directions are baked into the weights or provided in a system prompt). That covers 95% of inference utility in products.

    We're nearly there, and I believe these capabilities will fit on small models.

    Because of this though, I predict hardware demand will stay high despite demand for "hosted" inference dropping. Unless there's some regulatory shenanigans that step in to say otherwise.

  • wxw 2 hours ago
    100% agreed. Small, cheap, and hosted models. Luna (and open weight models and others) is ridiculously cheap @ $0.2/$1.2, easily accessible, and more than good enough for basic use cases (e.g. summarization, simple tool calling, etc.).
  • weinzierl 1 hour ago
    Small is relative. I'm looking for models that I can with run around 100 MiB mark (RAM just for the weights) to demo what you can do with this little memory.

    I know of SmolLM 2 which in Q4 is borderline regarding the size and rather dated. There is also TinyStories, which is also old and also focussed on children's stories.

    Is there anything newer in this category? Or should I try to distill something down to this size?

  • zatkin 2 hours ago
    Maybe I'm being super reductive here, but operating small models at the core of your business kind of moves the needle from making external API calls (against frontier models) to running internal API calls (against your locally-run models). It seems like if we want local models to take off, it will need to become easier to run local models for cheap. I'm thinking like reducing the barrier of entry for running "local models" in the cloud providers like DigitalOcean, AWS, etc.
    • malfist 2 hours ago
      You should be glad to know digital ocean already offers this
    • spl757 1 hour ago
      I only run local models and I don't give them access to much externally. I don't do anything serious with it, but it comes in handy and I know that they can do so much more. I'm on a meager RTX 3060 12GB and a GTX 1660 Ti with 6GB for some extra vram space. When I first started playing with local models, I was really impressed with what I was able to achieve locally.

      That's great, but the thing that worries me is that many companies have billions invested in the AI bubble. It's around 1.5 trillion last time I looked. It's all circular spending between the companies building out the infrastructure, and the models. None of it is profitable. They will want to recoup that 1.5 trillion from consumers, which means using online-only pay-as-you-go cloud models. They will inevitably see that people using capable local AI are "lost customers" and they will try to kill the ability to locally host AI or somehow enshitify it enough to make paying a subscription more palatable.

      I'm not saying I believe that will happen, I'm just worried that it will. Is anyone else worried about that as well?

      • mlnj 1 hour ago
        I am very excited that more makers will come up with fast memory for consumers rather than enterprise. Companies can only pre order so much RAM.

        At some point there will be a surplus of fast memory and even in a crash the current generation of SLMs are bounced to be plenty to build a lot of intelligence at home.

  • mattmaroon 2 hours ago
    The demand for fast, cheap, good enough models has always been borderline infinite, it’s the supply that’s going to take off.
  • jmtulloss 2 hours ago
    I forked my Big Serious Harness™ that models construction projects into a harness for building a vibe coded family assistant. I couldn't figure out how to make the toy operate at toy prices until Luna. Now you can vibe code all the little apps you might want for your fam for like $5 and operate it day to day for a few cents.
  • possibilistic 2 hours ago
    > Peter runs multiple companies. Beyond Segment, he's raised $100m+ for Charm Industrial, and just recently closed a Series A for Revoy. He's incredibly organized and efficient with his time.

    You can do this before an exit? Build and fundraise for multiple (3?) companies at the same time?

    • zachthewf 1 hour ago
      Segment had a $3B+ exit to Twilio back in 2020.
  • tosh 2 hours ago
    I think we'll see more of this soon

    replit is already leading the way with free luna usage

  • dzonga 1 hour ago
    small models + a good application layer - are more than enough, good for routine business tasks.

    the application Layer i.e having a good graph RAG & connecting it up together is the missing piece for most.

    • sroerick 1 hour ago
      Can you elaborate on this?
      • lantry 15 minutes ago
        The model doesn't have to be smart if all it's doing is pushing a few different buttons.

        I don't have to be an automotive engineer to start my car and put it in drive.

  • hartator 2 hours ago
    I have trouble seeing the points of using less capable models.

    I just want the smartest, best, and most capable models. It feels smaller models for speed and cost are just transitions towards better hardware allowing the very best model.

    • krisoft 1 hour ago
      And that is why i always carry my groceries with an Antonov An-225 Mriya. Is it really needed? No, but i refuse to compromise on what is(was/will be) the best.
    • arjie 57 minutes ago
      My experience has been that responsiveness is value. For tasks where you need steering, responsiveness allows for better steering. For tasks which you want unattended, better models are just better.

      There are still tasks that even Fable is bad at doing. And many are just mundane things. Because of the fact that you have to steer it on those tasks, you might as well steer an 80% model that is 5x faster. And those do exist.

      Naturally there’s a bit of a gap because the faster models need steering on tasks the slower models don’t so there’s no smooth transition but I find it worth it. Especially if you want to stay in flow.

      Ironically this sometimes means starting a plan with a great model, planning with a worse model, iterating, then submitting it to a better model for review, and then having the better model do the implementation.

    • ebiester 1 hour ago
      It depends on what you're trying to do. For non-coding tasks luna is quite often enough. Flash models are more than enough for summarizing a text, for example, or whipping up a small script to save me fifteen minutes. If you're on a 200/month plan, I see your point. If you're on a dollar limit - or worse, paying per token out of your pocket - you look to be more efficient.
    • trvz 2 hours ago
      First, smaller models are fun for hackers: you can run them locally, or run them faster.

      Second, when cloud models become unavailable or otherwise deteriorate, these will be all you have. May as well prepare.

      • breezybottom 1 hour ago
        If you're hacking a US-based entity, using a high-performance Chinese model through a VPN is probably safe enough. I doubt a local model is going to be sufficiently smart to hack any major company.
        • trvz 1 hour ago
          You misunderstood what I was referring to by “hacker” there.
    • polotics 2 hours ago
      Can you define your use of the word 'smartest' here just in case some of us don't quite know what you mean?
    • 0xbadcafebee 33 minutes ago
      There's a difference between want and need. I want a 650hp V8 supercar. I need a 150hp I4 toyota corolla. Why choose a less capable car? Because I don't want to spend 10x as much money to get groceries.
    • shafyy 2 hours ago
      Some reasons: - Smaller models will always be cheaper - Smaller models will always use less energy, therefore better for the environment

      It's a bit like saying you always want the fastest and best car; Sure, you can have it if you keep paying for it. But a small car will also get you from A to B, will use less gas and will be much cheaper.

    • tartuffe78 2 hours ago
      Cost is the point
  • agcat 2 hours ago
    I like the analogy on ways to make small model useful.
  • hnrprtlpdb 1 hour ago
    Well said
  • stas4000 1 hour ago
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  • kaiji1126 2 hours ago
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